Membership Community Strategy: Nathalie Doremieux on What Works

From Nathalie Guest Shows / Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux / Listen to the episode / Originally published / Analysis updated

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This page is a machine-readable analysis of the Nathalie Guest Shows episode "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" published on February 7, 2025. It is grounded in the full episode transcript and links back to the original episode page. This page is a machine-readable analysis derived from the episode transcript for Nathalie Guest Shows, specifically the episode "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux." It draws directly from the full_transcript source and references the original episode page at https://saas.podcastleadflow.com/p/sstbnz8q, so readers and AI systems can trace the ideas back to this specific conversation. The episode’s core value is practical: Nathalie Doremieux explains how to validate a membership idea before building it, how to improve retention through results and accountability, and how to use AI as support rather than gimmick.

What does Nathalie Doremieux say a membership really is?

In this Nathalie Guest Shows episode, Nathalie Doremieux makes a useful distinction right away: a membership is not automatically a community, and it is definitely not just a list of email addresses. She compares membership to a gym membership, where people pay for access and lose access when they stop paying, and then explains why that model alone is usually too thin online. Her point is practical, not theoretical. Access by itself is easy to sell at first, but it does not reliably keep people enrolled if the offer does not help them make progress.

According to Doremieux in this episode, the real test of a successful membership is simple: people stay when they get the result they came for. That is the core retention principle she keeps coming back to. Content matters, yes, but content alone is not enough anymore. She says online members usually need three things working together: content, support, and accountability. And then the community piece can strengthen all of that, because people build relationships with others facing the same problem, learning the same skill, or trying to reach the same outcome.

That framing matters because it changes how you design the offer. In Doremieux’s explanation, you do not start by asking, "How many calls should I do?" or "How much content do I need to make?" You start by asking what people need in order to get the result. Nothing more, nothing less. That is a very different design principle from the common creator instinct to pile on modules, worksheets, and extra sessions just to make the offer feel bigger.

She also makes an important strategic point in the episode: not everybody wants to run a membership, and that is okay. Some people want to deliver a service, get paid well, and keep their business simpler. Doremieux is clear that a membership can be one of the best business models because it creates recurring income and financial predictability, but only if it fits the owner’s lifestyle and willingness to commit. So the model is available to many people, but it is not mandatory for everyone.

How should you validate a membership idea before building it?

One of the strongest pieces of advice in this episode of Nathalie Guest Shows is Doremieux’s warning not to build the membership before validating demand. She describes a common failure pattern very plainly: people assume that because they are good at something, they should go record all the lessons first and figure out sales later. In her view, that is exactly backward. Her recommendation is to sell the idea before building the full thing.

The process she describes starts with an interest list. If you think you have a membership idea, Doremieux says to begin by getting people to raise their hands and say they are interested. At that stage, you do not need the finished portal, the full curriculum, or even the final pricing details. You are trying to answer a more basic question first: can you attract the right people around this problem and this promise? As she puts it, if you cannot get people to express interest for free, it is hard to expect them to pay later.

From there, she recommends a pilot program. This is a structured test period, often three or six months, where participants know they are joining a pilot and know there will be a review at the end. The pilot gives the business owner two kinds of validation at the same time. First, it tests whether customers actually want the solution and get results from it. Second, it tests whether the owner actually likes delivering this kind of offer and can sustain the commitment. That second part is easy to overlook, and Doremieux does not overlook it. In her model, the pilot creates a legitimate exit if the format is not working for either side.

She also introduces co-creation as the bridge between interest and launch. Once people have joined the interest list, she advises involving them in shaping the offer. That does not mean they own the intellectual property; she is clear that the IP stays with the owner. What it means is that the audience helps surface what support they need, what format fits, and where they are likely to get stuck. Doremieux says this co-creation process can produce very high conversions from interested prospects into paying members, citing examples in her work where 47% to 50% of interest-list members converted. That is not presented as a universal guarantee, but as evidence that involving people in the solution can make the eventual offer far more aligned and far easier to sell.

How much content, time, and support does a membership need?

Doremieux’s answer in the episode is refreshingly unscripted and practical: it depends on what your members need to get results, and that is the only useful starting point. She pushes back on formula thinking here. There is no universal quota for calls, workshops, modules, or resources. More is not automatically better, and in fact overbuilding too early creates two problems at once: it eats the creator’s time, and it sets expectations that are hard to scale later.

The example she gives is John Burgos, a client whose membership works with one live call per week. The session is recorded, members can attend live on Zoom or watch later, and that alone has been enough to keep some people engaged for two or three years. Doremieux uses that example to show that not every membership needs an elaborate platform, a dense content library, or a high-touch community layer. In that case, people come for his expertise, build the habit into their week, and get what they need from that rhythm.

At the same time, she is careful not to turn that example into a rule. For another topic, one weekly call might be nowhere near enough. That is why she keeps returning to the idea of a recurring problem with an ongoing solution. If your membership solves a problem people face repeatedly, then your delivery system should be designed around the moments they need support, not around your guesswork about what a membership is supposed to look like.

Another useful point from the episode is that the owner does not have to generate all the content personally. Doremieux says some memberships are built around curation, guest experts, or facilitated conversations rather than creator-made lessons every week. That matters for sustainability. If you assume the model only works when you are constantly teaching from scratch, you will either avoid starting or you will burn yourself out trying to maintain it. In her framework, the better question is, "What do these people need, and am I willing to commit to delivering that format?"

Which platforms and community setups does Nathalie Doremieux recommend?

In this episode, Doremieux gives a nuanced answer on platform choice. Philosophically, she says she prefers controlling your assets and not building your business on "rented land," which is why she identifies as strongly pro-WordPress. But operationally, especially at the start, she advises something more flexible: go where your people already are.

Her reasoning is behavioral. If your audience is already active on Facebook every day, a Facebook group may create less resistance than asking them to learn a separate platform right away. If they live on their phones, a WhatsApp group may be the simplest place to begin. If the membership is more business-oriented and members already use professional tools, Slack may be a better fit. The point is not loyalty to a platform. The point is reducing friction so people actually participate.

She also draws an important line between a social community and an implementation community. If the community exists mainly for lighter conversation, wins, and relationship-building, a feed-based environment may work. But if members need to ask structured questions tied to a lesson, module, or exercise, then Facebook can become messy fast because questions disappear in the feed and are hard to retrieve later. In those cases, Doremieux suggests paying close attention to how the community is being used and listening for signals like members saying they cannot find prior answers or important threads.

That leads to one of the more practical design principles in the episode: start easy, then monitor behavior, then upgrade when pain appears. In other words, you do not need to choose the perfect infrastructure on day one. Start in the environment that helps people engage, watch how they use it, and move to something more structured when the limitations become obvious to members themselves. That way, the platform change solves a felt problem instead of imposing extra complexity too early.

Why do so many courses fail to create results and retention?

Doremieux is blunt on this point in the Nathalie Guest Shows conversation: many online courses work financially because they sell at volume, not because most buyers get results. She describes the visible success stories as the tip of the iceberg. A program may have testimonials, active calls, and a few highly engaged students, but underneath that, there can be a large number of buyers who never log in, never ask a question, and quietly stall out.

Her explanation is not that these buyers are lazy. It is that content repositories are not the same thing as learning systems. Platforms like Kajabi, Teachable, and Thinkific are mentioned in the episode as examples of systems that often push creators toward a standard content-delivery mold. That mold makes it easy to upload videos and PDFs, but it does not automatically create onboarding, contextual support, or adaptation to the member’s stage. So beginners, intermediates, and advanced users all get the same structure whether or not it fits where they actually are.

Doremieux argues that onboarding is one of the missing pieces. In her view, when a new member joins, you should gather information about where they are starting so you can direct them appropriately. Without that, people are left facing a wall of content and expected to self-sort, self-motivate, and self-diagnose when they get stuck. A few highly disciplined people will do that. Many will not. And when members do not ask questions, Doremieux says that often does not mean they are fine. It may mean they do not know where to ask, do not feel safe asking, or do not believe they will be answered.

That is why she sees accountability and support as non-negotiable parts of retention. You do not want members binge-watching educational content the way they binge Netflix. You want a learning-doing rhythm: consume something, apply it, report back, get feedback, keep moving. In Doremieux’s framework, member experience is not mainly about polishing the portal. It is about removing the points where people stall so they can keep progressing.

How does Nathalie Doremieux suggest structuring a scalable membership?

A key insight from the episode is that sustainable memberships are not built on endless new content. They are built on a method. When the host asks what happens if the owner eventually runs out of ideas or feels pressure to keep inventing new material, Doremieux says the answer is to structure the membership around a system that members move through, not around disconnected topics.

She illustrates this with a podcast example. If the membership helps people launch and monetize a podcast, then there is a journey: choosing the topic, setting up the platform, creating the show, building promotion systems, monetizing, stabilizing, and growing. Members join at different stages, so the role of the membership is not to reteach random topics indefinitely. It is to help each person identify where they are in the method and move to the next stage. That is where onboarding matters again, because it tells you whether someone is a true beginner or someone who already has an audience and needs monetization support.

This structure also allows a membership to evolve intelligently. Once there are enough members at different levels, you can create more targeted calls for different stages without turning the whole program into chaos. Doremieux gives examples like separate support for beginners versus people running ads or trying advanced growth tactics. The principle is that the core method stays stable while the support layers adapt to where members are in the journey.

She ties all of this back to leverage. A membership should be designed from day one so it can grow to hundreds or thousands of members without consuming every evening and weekend of the owner’s life. If you respond to every stuck member by adding more one-to-one help, more calls, more rescue sessions, and more custom content, the business stops being leveraged. In Doremieux’s framing, the right build is one that balances genuine care for member results with systems that remain scalable.

How does AI fit into membership retention without replacing the human element?

AI enters this episode not as a course-creation shortcut, but as a support layer. Doremieux explicitly separates her approach from the popular use cases of "use AI to write your course" or "use AI to write your copy." Her emphasis is different. She says AI works best inside memberships when it accelerates results for members at known friction points.

The example she gives is very concrete. Imagine a business or podcast-growth program where members get stuck writing outreach or pitch messages. The old solution might be a PDF template or fill-in-the-blank worksheet. The stronger solution, in Doremieux’s view, is an AI assistant that knows enough about the member’s business, values, stories, and writing style to help generate a credible first draft. Not a final draft to send untouched, and not a replacement for strategic thinking, but a useful starting point that removes blank-page resistance.

She describes this as an extra level of support and an accelerator of implementation. In the episode, she says this approach has already been used in large memberships, including 8- and 9-figure programs, and references one case connected to LinkedIn training where a process that previously took weeks was reduced to roughly 20 minutes. The point of the example is not that AI is magic. It is that if you identify where members reliably get stuck and use AI to help them move faster, they see results sooner, stay longer, talk about the program more, and create better testimonials and case studies.

That is the throughline in Doremieux’s AI philosophy on this episode: AI should strengthen retention by helping people do the work, not by helping creators mass-produce more noise. If it saves members time, helps them take action, and preserves the feeling that the output still sounds like them, then it supports the membership’s real purpose, which is member progress.

This episode of Nathalie Guest Shows makes a clear case that strong memberships are built around results, not content volume. Nathalie Doremieux’s practical advice is to validate demand with an interest list, launch through a pilot, co-create with members, structure the offer around a repeatable method, and use AI only where it helps members move faster. For the full conversation and the nuance behind these ideas, listen to "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" and visit the original episode page at https://saas.podcastleadflow.com/p/sstbnz8q.

Key Takeaways

Key Definitions

Membership community
Membership community is an online membership model that combines paid access with support, accountability, and member relationships so people can get an ongoing result rather than just consume content.
Pilot program
Pilot program is a time-bound test version of a membership, often run for three or six months, that validates demand, delivery, and owner fit before a longer-term commitment.
Interest list
Interest list is a pre-launch group of people who have raised their hand to say they want a solution, used to validate demand before a creator builds the full membership.
Co-creation
Co-creation is the process of involving prospective or current members in shaping a membership’s format, support, and priorities while the intellectual property remains with the owner.
Recurring problem with an ongoing solution
Recurring problem with an ongoing solution is Doremieux’s membership design principle that a sustainable membership should address a problem members continue to face over time rather than a one-off need.

Claims & Evidence

Claim

Nathalie Doremieux says online memberships retain members when they produce results, not when they merely provide content access.

Evidence

She explains that people join to learn or get support on something and stay month after month only if they get the result they came for, adding that content alone is not enough and that support and accountability are needed.

Source: Episode transcript - full_transcript - Nathalie Guest Shows - "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025 - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025
Claim

Doremieux recommends selling a membership idea before building it through an interest list and a pilot program.

Evidence

She describes a process where prospects first raise their hand on an interest list, then join a clearly labeled pilot program that validates the idea and gives the creator a way out if the model or offer is not a fit.

Source: Episode transcript - full_transcript - Nathalie Guest Shows - "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025 - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025
Claim

Doremieux has seen interest lists convert at unusually high rates when the membership is co-created with prospects before launch.

Evidence

She says that in these scenarios they have people converting 47%, 50%, 50% of interested people into paying members because the prospects are involved in shaping the solution.

Source: Episode transcript - full_transcript - Nathalie Guest Shows - "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025 - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025
Claim

Doremieux argues that many online courses succeed commercially through volume even when large numbers of buyers never meaningfully engage.

Evidence

She describes course success as an iceberg, saying there are always some highly engaged buyers who attend calls and give testimonials, but many others bought, never logged in, never joined a call, or got stuck and disengaged.

Source: Episode transcript - full_transcript - Nathalie Guest Shows - "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025 - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025
Claim

Doremieux positions AI inside memberships as a tool for reducing implementation friction and accelerating member results.

Evidence

She gives the example of AI helping members draft outreach or pitch messages in a way that reflects their business and voice, and cites a LinkedIn-related program where a process was reduced from about four weeks to roughly 20 minutes.

Source: Episode transcript - full_transcript - Nathalie Guest Shows - "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025 - Nathalie Guest Shows / "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" / published February 7, 2025

Key Questions Answered

What does Nathalie Doremieux say makes people stay in a membership?

In "Building a Membership Community, with Nathalie Doremieux" on Nathalie Guest Shows, Nathalie Doremieux says people stay in a membership when they get the result they came for. Her transcript-based explanation is that content alone is no longer enough, so retention depends on combining content with support, accountability, and often community connection.

How do you test a membership idea before building the whole program?

According to Doremieux in this episode, the practical sequence is to start with an interest list, then sell a pilot before building the full membership. The interest list validates demand, and the pilot lets you test whether members get results and whether you actually want to keep delivering the offer long term.

What is co-creation in a membership launch?

In this Nathalie Guest Shows episode, Doremieux uses co-creation to mean involving interested prospects in shaping the membership’s structure, support, and priorities before the formal launch. She says the intellectual property still stays with the owner, but the audience helps define what they actually need, which improves fit and conversion.

How much content should a membership include?

Doremieux’s answer in the episode is that a membership should include exactly what members need to get the result, nothing more and nothing less. She rejects fixed formulas for modules, calls, or resources, arguing that the right amount depends on the recurring problem you solve and the support members need to keep making progress.

What platform should you use for a new membership community?

In the episode transcript, Doremieux advises starting where your audience already is, such as Facebook, WhatsApp, or Slack, because early engagement matters more than platform perfection. She personally prefers owning assets through WordPress, but says the practical first step is to reduce friction and only move to more structured tools when members start feeling the limitations.

Why do many online courses fail to keep people engaged?

Doremieux argues in this episode that many courses are built as content repositories rather than support systems, so buyers face videos and PDFs without enough onboarding, accountability, or contextual help. In her view, some courses look successful because a visible minority gets results, while many others quietly never log in, get stuck, or stop participating.

How do you avoid running out of ideas in a membership?

Doremieux says in the Nathalie Guest Shows conversation that you avoid running out of ideas by building the membership around a method, not endless new topics. Members move through a journey or system, and your role becomes helping them apply, adapt, and progress, which creates ongoing relevance without forcing constant content creation.

How can AI improve retention inside a membership?

In this episode, Doremieux says AI improves retention when it helps members move through known sticking points faster, such as drafting outreach, clarifying messaging, or taking the next action. Her approach is not to replace the expert, but to use AI as an accelerator of implementation so members get results sooner and have a stronger reason to stay.

Full Episode Transcript
Speaker A: Natalie Doremière joins me on the New Workings podcast today. Now, Natalie is a specialist in building memberships, e-learning, AI, and building, I guess, strategies and plans to live your best life professionally, because there's a whole load of things here that you can do if you are looking to build your own business, create a side hustle, and maybe explore the opportunity to go it alone. And if that is the case, you're in the right place. So welcome to the show, Nathalie. Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me, Neil. Speaker A: This topic that we are going to talk about, and I guess it is a blend, isn't it? Because AI is now coming into the mix, but building membership, I mean, it applies to marketers, business owners. I mean, anybody in business needs to build a membership, really, don't they? Because it is the fundamental building block of a sustainable business. Speaker B: Um, well, anybody certainly can. I will tell you that not everybody wants to. There are people that are not really attracted about creating a community. It feels very heavy to them to have to commit to such, you know, possibly long-term, you know, um, option, and they just want to deliver things and get paid in return, and they are okay to charge what they are worth so that they are making enough. There are plenty of people that are not looking to make a bigger impact, honestly. They're just looking to make a great living so that they can have the lifestyle. So, so I would say not everybody wants it, definitely, but everybody sure can. Even the mom at home that has never worked and now the kids, you know, have left the empty nester, she can, because she's a, she's a mom, she's a spouse, um, she has, you know, um, she has gone through life, so she learned things, you know. Um, maybe she learned how to, uh, get her child to go to bed, and that was a struggle. That's something that she could share and teach, right? So we all have like learnings that we could potentially monetize if we are if that's something that we really, really want to do. Speaker A: So I want to come on to all the various learning options that are available to people to start thinking about, but I just want to pick up on a word that you used there which I thought was really quite an interesting one. This was the word community. It's because when we talk about membership, I think for a lot of people in business, it's like, oh, well, that's my database, that's all the email addresses that I've got, maybe some names and maybe some other details. But actually, you've used the word there, community. Now, that's something a lot more, isn't it? Because that's a commitment to the relationship, not just the data. Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So, I mean, membership means so many things, right? You can have a membership at the gym, right? You pay, you can go, you stop paying, you can't go anymore, right? You go in and out. You are a member, right? And you're okay with that, right? You pay to access to something, some type of service of content. Now you can do this online. The problem is that these type of memberships don't work as well when they are not combined with some type of support and accountability. Because you find that when people join memberships online, the, the way that they are going to get results, right? So you sign up to learn something, or, you know, to, to have support on something. And the way that they are going to stay month after month, or year after year if it's a yearly, is if they get the result that they came for. And content is not just enough anymore. They need the support, they need the accountability. And very often the community is what makes people stay in a way, because now they've built this connection, this relationship with other people that are learning the same thing or facing the same problem, right? So if you're creating this safe space around a specific topic, And people are enjoying this and are getting what they came for. Why would they want to leave? And ultimately, that's what a successful membership is, is when you are able to attract the right people and they don't want to leave. Speaker A: So there's so many questions in here that I have for you now with those answers, Natalie. It's like, oh, and there's this, and then there's this, and then there's this. I mean, one thing that to me really, really interesting is this kind of level of commitment. Let's say that somebody listening to this or watching this decides, okay, 'Okay, from the end of this, Natalie's convinced me that I need to look into this.' How much kind of commitment to that community as the, I guess, the owner of the course or the e-learning package or the material or the product or the service, as the owner of that, the person who's created it, how much kind of commitment of time, of energy, of facilitating topics and maybe workshops and things, how much of that is required from the owner so to speak? Speaker B: So it really varies. Like, there is not like a single answer. It varies on a number of things, and I can give you some examples. Um, at the core, what you want is your membership to kind of like solve a recurring problem with an ongoing solution, right? So you've identified people and say, I can help, they have this problem, I can help them. And then it's about finding what do I need to give them in order for them to get the result and the support, nothing more, nothing less. So how many calls do we need to open workshops? How often do I deliver content? It depends. What do they need? It's not about how much content, how many calls do I need to do? I have people that say, so how much, how much content do I need to create? And I'm like, what they need. Right. So the, that, that idea of commitment, I think this is a lot of what, um, is preventing people from moving ahead with the membership model. I think this is the best business model, by the way. Recurring income, you get to make the impact and you get to continue to help people, right, that you've worked with. And so they don't have to go some places. So it's, it's a model when you can fit it within your lifestyle then you're golden, right? Because business, running a business is risky, but then you have that membership model that gives you that financial predictability, right? So, uh, going back to like how much and what is the commitment, um, you, you're gonna have several level of memberships, right? Look, so if you, if I give you some examples, I have this one client, John Burgos. He does one call per week. Live recorded, you can come on Zoom, right? And then it takes the recording and places it in the membership, and that's it. It's had people that are there for like 2, 3 years, and it's working really, really well. And that's all he needs to do, right? Now, if you were teaching someone, um, about a certain topic and you just do that, that might be absolutely not enough. You know, they need more than that. He doesn't even have a community. He doesn't need to. People come for him and it's kind of like a habit. You know, they put it into their routine. I come, I listen, or I watch the recording later and I've got what I came for. That's it. Right. So there are ways for people to test because let's be honest, we want to test several things. One, we want to test, is it something that people are actually going to buy? Am I going to like it? Because there are people that are like, you know what, this is too heavy. I don't— that's not what I want to do. I'm not interested. Right. So I mentioned this earlier, it's like, because it's a thing, you know, like people are not interested to, to have that idea of having a commitment. Right. But the recurring and financial predictability comes with that commitment. Now the thing is, it doesn't have to be you. There are memberships where you don't even come up with the content, you're a curator. Like say I am a membership expert, right? We use AI as an accelerator and I could have a membership where every week I bring in a guest that has an AI tool, right? He provides the expertise, right? It provides something at a deeper level that I don't even know. Right. So that I could not, so it's not competition is actually helping my community. Right. But I don't have to come up with content. We could even record a masterclass and then put it in the membership and that would work. Right. So it's about like reversing the problem and say, if I want to help these people, what do they need? And is that something that I am willing to commit to? Speaker A: Which means that you could, in theory, start small then, couldn't you? You could literally begin with maybe a very short course, or as you said right at the start, just something that you know about and you're passionate about and put it out there, maybe see who's interested, maybe then test the scale of it and the kinds of resources that would be consumed. Because I guess, well, I kind of know that some people are very much aligned with, say, video content, other people like to listen. So kind an audio-based course, or some people still like the actual paper course where they can actually look through a book. So it's kind of really, really flexible. But I guess you have to listen to the audience that you're targeting right from the outset, because otherwise you could end up spending a whole host of time, maybe 6 months even, creating the program, and then nobody comes or nobody listens. And what a shame. Speaker B: Exactly. And actually there was a way to do it, uh, where you don't have to do any of that, because I think that's one of the reasons, like I was saying, that people don't even start because they're like, I don't know if I'm going to like it. Once I have people, I like, I've committed, so I have to keep doing it. And I don't want to put myself in that situation. So the way to do this is when I work with people, this is, you know, how we identify this is we're going to do a pilot program. And what this pilot program is going to do is going to allow you to validate the idea, and it's giving you a way out if it doesn't work, like you're not able to help the people, or you find out that's not what you want to do. And people are very clear that they're getting on a pilot program, and that at the end of the pilot, there will be a review, right? Now, what we do in this pilot, what's kind of like unique in the way that I tell people that are, you know, wondering is you want to sell it before you build it. So you sell them on the idea. And what I tell people is that if you're interested in a membership and you have an idea, start building what we call an interest list. So you get people to raise their hand and say, I'm interested. Don't have to tell them what's going to be inside, how much is going to be. We are not there. Like you gauge interest, because if you can't do that, then how do you expect people to pay later, right? So that's the people that are like, oh, you know, I'm very good at this, you know, I could teach the piano, you know, I'm gonna record all these videos and then I'll figure it out to sell it. Don't do that because that's like a recipe for failure, right? So you have an idea, test it out there, start talking to people. If you can't build That audience, those people that are raising their hand, then get help on the messaging. Maybe the messaging is wrong, or maybe there is no need. There is not a need, right? Or you're in front of the wrong people. I mean, there are like so many different ways, right? But that's kind of like the idea. So when you start to have this list, I mean, we have people that convert 47%, 50%, 50% of these people into paying members, because then what we do, That's the magic. Once you've got an interest list and you get into co-creation with them, that means you start to involve them in the solution. So what happened is that by the time you're ready to launch this, you haven't created anything. They don't even have a portal. Like it's just an idea, but like you're formulating the structure of your program and saying, this is what we're going to start with. So I love what you said, like make it simple. And then together we're going to figure out how to make it work for you and how to make it work for me. And very often that's when you can add more resources or you add an extra call or something like that. Right. Um, but you don't do this from the get-go because it's really hard to remove things when you've given it to people. Say, let's start with that and see how that goes. And when you get, working with them, not only you make sure that this is something they want, but they feel seen, heard. They're not just a number like many memberships or online courses that you buy where they don't even know if you got results. They don't even ask, right? So the only reason you get access to them is if you ask for a refund or something, right? So in that case, you know, like they are so involved that they really feel like— that's what we call co-creation. In persuasion, right? It's that they feel it's a bit of their own already because like they helped create it. And those are your best people. So then you run your pilot, you decide it's 3 months, 6 months, whatever, but they know, they know that at the end of this period, there's going to be for you an analysis of have people have been getting the thing that they wanted, right? Is it taking me too much time. So am I willing to hire someone to help, or, or is it exactly what I want to do? Let's keep going, right? So that's the, the general idea. So that makes it, you know, like, I think, a good option for people to test and have a way out. Speaker A: And also, I guess, from the way you're describing it, um, it allows them to almost sort of settle into that feeling that it doesn't have to be me coming up with all the ideas. I mean, the beauty of co-creation is that there's this unlimited pot of ideas, isn't there? Because there's always going to be somebody who says, oh, I've just spotted something you haven't, could we do something on this? And so you're kind of, yeah, as you say, building it collaboratively. Does, does the IP stay with the owner though? Because if everybody else is coming up with all the ideas, do, do they still sort of say, okay, but this is my platform, I, I will decide how this plays out? Or does the IP become part of the Yeah. No, no. Speaker B: The IP really stays with the owner. The conversation is like, could we have this? Could we have that? But it's actually the owner that goes in, you know, and either gather the guests or, you know, create the content and things like that. So, I mean, one of the things that you can do for example, is when you're bringing in guests, you know, on top of what you're doing, is you can have people make suggestions, even like when your membership is running. Yeah. Like if you'd like to suggest, like if you'd like to have somebody talk on this topic, and it would be amazing if you can interview that person, right? So you can have people, you know, coming with suggestions and things like that. So, um, I think that's one of the dangers, like when we are, um, an authority in what we do and like we have like an expertise, If you will, to think that we know better what people want. I mean, that's the, that's very old thing. You know, we know what they need, but like we have to meet them at their level of awareness and what they want. So that's why we have to listen. And then I can say, I can, I want this. And then you say, okay, I'm going to give you this. And then it's for you as the expert. It's the way you deliver it that you make sure they get what they actually need. Speaker A: So when— I'm curious about the kind of the delivery of this then, because it sounds great. I mean, building the community, everybody's involved. Well, there's an invitation to get involved because obviously some people will just want to consume and they might give you a little bit of feedback, but they'll never be the ones coming forward with ideas. And that's fine, I guess, isn't it? As the community builds, does it find its own natural place to exist? Because, you know, there are so many ways you could do this. You create your own platform. You could use, I don't know, Facebook group or WhatsApp or what, you know, there's, there's a whole range of different places. Do you see some platforms or some ways of delivering this collaboration and building the community? Does it work better in some places than others? Speaker B: So when you get started, one, um, One smart way, I think, to do it is to look at where people already at. So if your people are on Facebook, you can start with a Facebook group. I'm not a fan. I am 100% WordPress, control your stuff, your asset, don't put your business on rented land. That being said, what you want at the beginning is engagement. So if you have a mom that's like very busy and she's already on Facebook every day and you ask her to log into another platform and she doesn't necessarily see the value that it's better for her to go there than here, you're going to have some resistance, right? So what is better is to stay where they are. So you'll see that like the business memberships, like the, the higher, you know, mastermind programs that we are in, we have Slack channels now, right? So we use Slack because it's kind of like more of a business tool. We already use it internally. And then we have a Slack channel for the paid program that we are part of, right? So I think it's going to really depend on, on your audience, what they are already using, what they're familiar with, but also what is the purpose of the, of the community. So for example, If you're teaching someone business and you want the community to be the place where they can give accountability on the work that they've done, you know, I've contacted X people, I have managed to get 10 interviews on podcasts and things like that. Is it making sense that the community is where the content is? That means they are consuming, right? They are learning, doing, and then accountability. Or are you making them go to Facebook to actually build relationships and say, uh, and talk about like business, but you know, the other kind, not like the direct implementation of the program, right? So is it a social community, right, where you can still share, you know, your wins, but things that are light Or is it something that's linked to, okay, uh, module 2, you know, this exercise, this is what I found, but I'm stuck here. Right. Because if it's this kind of question, it's not going to work so well on Facebook because Facebook is a feed. So it's going to, right. And we know how the search works, right? So it's all these things to look at. And what I said at the beginning is like, if you're not sure, do something that is easy. They are on Facebook, create Facebook. They're always on their phone, do a WhatsApp group. But then monitor and see how people are using it. And if you see that people are starting to say, uh, oh, somebody asked this question, I can't find it anymore, can somebody share, you know, um, then you can say, okay, if we were to move the community somewhere else so that it's more structured, you can find things, right, would you be interested? And if they say, oh yes, then you know you got something and you can start to look for a solution because now there's a pain. Right. And you've sold them on the idea that there is a possibility that outside of this, there is something that will work better for them. Hmm. Speaker A: So the way you're describing that is the word that keeps coming back to me in my mind is flexibility. I think this is all about being super flexible, both in your own expectation, but also the flexibility of how this is going to evolve, because Week 1 could look very different to Week 6, could look very different to Week 20 in your kind of journey with this. So that flexibility obviously is going to be really, really key. Does it mean as well though that we have to almost follow the— if there are rules, but almost follow the rules of that journey? Because I know a lot of these kinds of courses or development programs, they will kind of get you in through the kind of the live broadcast or the webinar, as you say, the interview a guest, and then you book up for the course, and then you're almost left to your own devices for maybe a month or 2 months, and then they might do another session, but they're kind of just leaving you to it. Is there a place that works better? And I'm guessing I'm sort of leading on this one here, Natalie, but is there a place where just little constant drip feeds of that kind of live interaction— is that the accountability that people are looking for? Because it's hard to do this all by yourself, isn't it? Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, we, and we can start talking about e-learning if you want, but the key is that, I mean, you can have a great marketing, great sales, you know, so you make sales on the webinar and people buy, but ultimately what you want, the true success is if people actually get the result. I mean, to me, that's how, you know, and when you have a membership, a recurring membership, you can see it clearly because if they don't get the result, they will leave. Right. So you have this program where you buy, and then like you said, and if you're a bit on the introvert side and maybe your time zone is not exactly the time zone of the— then you don't have the calls until they are— unless they are at 11 PM or 2 AM. So you might go to 1 or 2, but then you completely feel left out, right? And these courses, honestly, they work because they sell to so many people. That there's going to be always a group of people that are all in. They come to all the calls and then they'll get— they'll give the testimonial and things like that. And people like, oh, this course works. But it's an iceberg. It's an iceberg. For these people, there is so many people that bought that never logged in, never been to a single call, right? Or are stuck and don't even— they don't even know where to start to ask the question. I mean, people that don't ask questions, often it's not because they don't have a question. We should all have a question. How can I do this better is a question, right? Here is what I'm thinking, any ideas? That's a question, right? So if you don't have a question, that means that probably you don't know where to ask or you don't feel that you can actually ask, right? That there is a place to feel supported. And that's really, really sad. And that's where that system of membership. So when you have a membership, you join a membership, whether you join as a cohort, you know, like, you know, it's open, closed. So there is maybe a webinar and then it opens and you can join the membership. There is an onboarding and the onboarding is to make sure that in my book, right, that when a new member comes in, that you can gather the information on where they're at. So that you can better support them on the portal, right? Oh, she's a beginner or intermediate or advanced, or she's at that stage, right? So, but most programs don't do that. Why? Because the Kajabi, the Teachable, the Thinkific, they don't allow you to do that. So they ask you to fit the mold. So you fit the mold and that becomes a content repository, if you will, but that is not what gets people results because now people are faced with videos and PDFs and most people will not have the discipline, let's be honest, or the motivation, or the first thing where they get stuck, they'll say, well, I'll try again later, or maybe I'll post a question in the Facebook group and it's being ignored because there are so many people talking about other things, right? And then you're like, oh my gosh, you know, and, and you give up, you shelve it. Then they tell you, well, you have access for life, so you can come back to it. And we know how that goes. So that's kind of like the thing that really gets me is, uh, so many people creating programs like that. Yeah. Speaker A: And this is the thing, isn't it? Because the way you're describing this, Natalie, is that this is the professional way to do it. And you, you've used the word business quite a few times here. This is not about somebody looking to get rich quick, you know, literally fake a course, do a couple of kind of canned webinars, maybe using AI so they don't even have to appear themselves, and there's no substance to it. And actually what they're looking for is just a quick, quick few dollars. What we're talking about here is where this is done properly and professionally. So how do we kind of differentiate? How do we cut through all of that? Because if you go on to say YouTube, you know, every other YouTube ad you know, the pre-roll or within the actual ad itself is saying, oh look, come and join this program, do this. Or maybe it's just my feed, but you know, I see so many of these. How do we cut through and kind of encourage people or give people the confidence that no, this one that we're producing is actually a professional, well-managed, it's community, it's a proper program here, it's not just, uh, we want your money. How do we cut through? Speaker B: So I think that there are several things you need to look at. One is what is the best environment for you to thrive? So for me, there needs to be a community. Not everybody, you know, is like that, but like, there needs to be calls and it needs to be smaller groups. If you, you buy a course, you know, like say you spend $2,000 and you buy a course and there are like thousands of people that bought, and then you get on the call and they are like 300 people. I will never raise my hand to be put in front. I would not. And you can see it's always the same people that raise their hand. So that type of program is not for me, even if the content is great, right? But it's about the experience, right? So, but if I am in a group, you know, like where I am right now, and actually it's a 6 months, one of the group, the program I mean, it's a 6 months, you renew every 6 months. And I just renewed because I feel seen. I know that when I am in the call, I am comfortable. It's actually, we can all see each other's face, unlike these big programs. And I know I can raise my hand. And I know that even though they have lots of members, because I am consistent, he knows my business. So I'm not like just a number, right? So you have one is, I think you have to learn to figure out how you're going to best perform, you know, how do you need to be surrounded, you know. It's this type of program, if the content is good, are you going to be able to maybe say, you know, get in a release, you know, get in contact with several of the members and say, can we do an accountability, you know, like do something like that on your own. But if you're like, yeah, I bought a course before and I, you know, they never asked me, you know, if I had questions and stuff like that. And I got stuck and I wasn't sure. And I posted once or twice, but like, I never get an answer, you know, because other people post and depending on when you post and things like that. So then you're like, you know, that's not a model that works for me. So then you look for something else, right? So that's number one. It's like, is that a format? And two, you have to talk to people that have gone through the program. So you have people that are so excited because they feel seen, they come on the call. But are you getting the result? Are you getting results? Because there are people that stay in programs because, like, but the result, like, if it's a business, honestly, like, is the bank account growing? No, but like, I'm getting closer, I'm getting closer. No, like, you know, because they don't want to be alone. Some people join this type of things because they are like busy in the doing, therefore it's working. No, you have a goal. Did you actually get to the goal? Right. So, I mean, for me, it's really talking to people. When I joined a program, when I joined this program, I knew the people from like 3 years ago, at least. Right. Not like a stranger that came in and that's really great at selling me a funnel or something. And then, I mean, I would not join something like that. Speaker A: So we need to kind of really, I guess, educate and inform, don't we, our target audience. Again, if somebody is listening listening or watching this and thinks, you know, I want to do this, I've got this big idea, I want to build a community as much possibly for social reasons and for connection as the financial, because I guess we all have different motivators here, you know. And if somebody is looking purely financial, they want to scale their idea, then that's one model that you've just described there, which maybe isn't for you, probably isn't for me either. But for somebody else, that would absolutely be the sweet spot. That is what they're trying to do. But I think what you're describing here, Natalie, is more of a— could I call it a sort of a mastermind kind of group? Something that's a little bit more of a kind of a real working group where you're actually collaboratively kind of in it together, where there is that shared accountability. And, you know, I meet you this week and I see you then next week, and then I question you the following week because actually you didn't do what you said 2 weeks ago you were going to do. And is it that kind of interaction at that real personal level that's coming through here? Speaker B: Yeah. So for me, it's that kind of interaction that I look for. And then, so if we're looking in terms of like membership size, uh, not size, but like, um, let's say price point, cause I want to give you an idea. So you can find things like this at like $200 a month. Like this one is $1,000, right? So you see, you have different level of, um, access to people and knowledge and feedback. Like, how much feedback do you need? I can ask feedback every day at that price point, right? So, um, so you have to look at that, you know, not only when you create your program, but when you're looking for a solution, what kind of support are you looking for, right? Um, and, and I know sometimes we don't know what we're going to need, but we kind of know ourselves and our how much accountability we need, right? Because we are all our worst accountability buddies, right? We're okay to disappoint ourselves. No, but I really couldn't do it because, you know, there was this, there was that. We tell ourselves stories, right? But when you have to say to people, this is what I'm doing this week, and you know you're going to be asked next week, then it's a different story, right? So what is the format for you that will work. I think that's something you have to honestly ask yourself, that question. Speaker A: So if I'm hosting something like this, so I've set up my program, I've got some, and we'll still call it a pilot because we haven't gone big here. So it's kind of early days. I have a topic that I'm really excited about and really interested in. I have my first couple of groups and they're sharing and people seem interested in this. Does it get to a point though, as a host of this, if you don't have many decades of experience on the topic, where even if you're going to collaborate and co-create content and ideas, people are looking to you to lead it because you are the leader, you are the owner of this program. Is there a certain pressure that comes after a certain time? Because I could imagine there would be— well, I know that there are topics maybe that if I was to do a program on, I'd be fine for the first few weeks, and then it would get to a point where I'd think, hmm, I'm starting to struggle here because I'm not really sure what else to do. Give me marketing, I could talk forever, you know, and all the various facets of marketing, but anything else I might struggle. So I'm sure people listening to this would be thinking, I buy into this, I would love this kind of recurring kind of personal interest, but also with an income. 'But I don't have enough stuff to share, and I'm worried and I'm conscious that my community might turn around and not be so collaborative. They might not have ideas. They might be looking to me to give all the solutions.' What do you do then? Speaker B: I love this question because I have the answer for you. So remember when we said, how do you pick your idea, right? It needs to be something that people are going to have an ongoing need. So when you said, for example, you can talk about marketing all day, right? What you really want to have behind your membership as a structure is a method, a system that people go through. Okay. So you're not doing like one call on this, then the next week or month, another call on this topic. It's not like, because you know, you're going to have people that join at different places. So what you want, and that's part of the onboarding I was talking about is you show them the journey. So you join this membership, this program, because you want to grow your YouTube channel, I don't know, right? Or you want to monetize a podcast, right? Something like that. So you know how to teach that to them, right? So you have a method, a system, and there are some steps, right? So through the membership, people have access to this so they can track their progress. So that's why during the onboarding, if they say, I have a podcast, but I'm not monetizing it, then they are in a specific place. If they say, I don't even have a podcast yet, then they are more beginner. So maybe that phase, you're gonna help them figure out the topic of their webinar, how to pick the platform, right? But you can imagine that someone that already has a podcast doesn't care that you tell them where they should host. Right. So that's where the customized experience comes in. So you have this journey, right? So you have the podcast, then you figure out how you're going to monetize it. You've got a whole bunch of things around getting guests. Then there is the promotion, uh, right. And then there is, um, like, so in this, you always have like, how do you create it? Like stabilize it. Maybe you have the team and then how you grow it. And how you grow, it becomes a recurring, right? Because there is always things that you can do, you can improve, right? So then you give them tools to test. So let's test with, uh, this month, let's do an experiment and let's, uh, try to get interviewed on a Tom Bilyeu podcast, you know, like pick a really, really big one. And that's the challenge for the month, right? The next month is going to be about, you know, something else, maybe tapping into a new social media channel, right? Or maybe they want to go on TV or something, you know, like, so you can have like, there is always something that is going on in business. But now that they have the foundation, right, then you can continue to support them in, in the growth, in growing, right? Because we are always learning in marketing. So you can come in on the calls. And there can be somebody that is completely new and maybe somebody that already has a podcast. But I am one of these people that think that they can both learn from each other, right? So the questions, we learn so much from the questions from others, right? And you can start to have calls that are more specific to, you know, as you grow and you have more people and maybe you have a team, you can say on Tuesday we meet for the beginners. Because then they are all together and you can go deeper into a tool. And then we meet for the people that are looking to run ads inside their podcast, for example. I don't know. Right. And that's more specific. Right. So like there are so many ways where this evolves, but it's not about creating more content. You know, you said like, I'm afraid of running out of stuff. You're never going to run out of your expertise. Right. So if people keep doing, then you can be there, you know, as like the sounding board and say, well, I haven't tried that. Because they'll come back to the course, say, okay, so I tried it, these are the results that I got, right? So it's, it's, it's like coaching, you know, almost, you know, or masterminding like you were saying, right? So you never run out of ideas, you know. It's about not about giving them more things, it's about giving them the tools Right. So talking about AI, we haven't talked about AI, but one of the ways when you integrate AI into these portals is that you give them extra tools. So it's an extra level of support, right? And that's a great retention strategy because if it works and they are using it, then why would they leave if they are growing being in your community, right? Is that making sense? Speaker A: Totally and utterly. And it just— and I'm sure for everybody listening, it just is like, you know, the ideas start flowing because that whole thing about task-related rather than it's we're going to just serve you with more content, we're going to serve you— it's a real involvement. I mean, this is community, isn't it? I think we've kind of come full circle here because you can only really feel part of the community if you're doing things. Listening and absorbing stuff is one thing, but actually then taking and then being accountable for that action within the community, the membership, the mastermind, the group, whatever you call it. That's the key, isn't it? I think you're absolutely right with that. Yeah, that kind of behavior thing. It's not just about information, it's about behavior. And so I think maybe as a host, as the owner of the program or the course or the learning, is it's your responsibility to get people taking action, not just absorbing the content, isn't it? That's exciting because then that does apply to absolutely everybody, doesn't it? Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's, uh, people are not joining for, um, listening to your videos. You know, I hear people say you want to create bingeable memberships where people binge your content. I mean, unless you're Netflix and you're entertainment, then yes, but otherwise you don't want them to binge. Actually, you want them to watch and do. Right? So learning, doing, learning, doing, because that's how they're going to see progress and stay. So then it's about what tools do you give them? Because you can do— you can— people say, you know, um, should I add more calls, right? But adding more calls means more of your time. So you sacrifice your lifestyle, you created something, and then you feel like you have to do more calls or more money because you hire people. You might hire people to do those calls, right? So that's where AI comes in as well. It's like, I see AI as an accelerator of results. It's not replacing us, but it's another level of support and a way to help people that are stuck, you know, and in the way we use AI and talk about, I know AI, people talk about AI to create your course, write your copy, write your book. You know, it's really, to me, It's not about that. It's really about a tool that saves us time and the way we use it in people's— I mean, I'm talking like 8, 9-figure memberships, is they have identified that in one of these steps, like if we take the example of the podcast, right, monetizing a podcast, there is a place where it gets tricky and people are a bit stuck. Like they are not really implementing as fast as you would like. And maybe this is where they need to write a pitch to the big podcaster. So you can give them a template, right? You give them a PDF, a fillable, you know, that's the traditional, or you can have an AI assistant that knows about their business, knows about their core values, right? Knows about the way they write. Knows about their stories, right, of why they do what they do, right? And then you combine it with this strong prompt that is going to help them craft the start of a message that feels like them, where they actually, you know, touches of your business. Like, yes, it feels like me. It's like something that I would write if I was a good writer, you know, kind of. And then you start from that. And what it does is that it gives them something to get started. It sounds a lot like them and it gives them the confidence that then they can go out. So of course you don't take that and send it to the people. Now you make it, but you've got a structure and you see, okay, I see how the storytelling, because people say, you know, you have to add storytelling. Like people are like, how do I add storytelling? Sometimes you see a sentence, it's a story, and then it gets into business. There is no flow, right? So you see, so when you identify your resistance like this, you're like, okay, what can I provide to give them that little nudge so that they don't stay stuck and they can keep moving? That's how I see AI. That's how we implement AI inside programs. And it's been so successful. I mean, the result that we got, you know, like from where it would take, you know, such amount of time to do something that, you know, that now I think it was like from like 4 weeks to 20 minutes or something like that with something which is huge. This is for someone who is teaching LinkedIn, um, and, um, it's called the Rainmaker. Uh, if you— it's, it's on LinkedIn. It's a big program on LinkedIn and, and it's huge. It's making a huge difference for people because If they get results faster, this is one more reason for people to basically stay. So stay, talk about it to others. You get the testimonials, you get the case studies, you can use that for your authority, for your marketing, and get even more clients. So we don't want to neglect how important it is to make sure that our clients get results. I mean, not everybody is going to do it. They still have to do their part, right? But are we doing everything that we can to help them? Speaker A: This is fascinating. I mean, there's so much to it, but then yet it is so simple, isn't it? The concepts are so simple, but the beauty of this is in the detail. And I think that's what I'm really hearing from you, is that if you— big picture, but it's balance. Speaker B: Yeah, it's balance. And you have to find the balance between that really deep, deep desire of wanting to have people result, and the fact that you're running a business. And I'm going to be completely honest, right now what I have in my mastermind is, say, you know, they say, we see you care, you're also running a business. Okay, so remember that people— because I used to talk a lot about people want successful clients, and they're like That's very cute, but people, businesses want to make money first. So I have to, you know, even I have to remind myself. So it's, it's really a balance between wanting to have the impact, you know, like that people get the result and what we have to do. And, and a membership is a leverage business, right? We want things that allow us to have the lifestyle that we want, right? So we have to build it in such a way from day one that it's scalable, that you can get thousands of members and you still have your weekends and your evenings and, and, you know, and, and work on your terms, right? And, and you can if you don't start drowning yourself into, I need to create more videos, oh, let me do another call, let me create another resource, let's hop on a call one-on-one because that person is stuck and you're afraid that they might leave or something. If you start to do that, then it's not leveraged anymore, right? So it's that balance that you have to find. Wonderful. Speaker A: People, if you're listening to Natalie talking here, and I'm sure you have so, so many ideas, there's two things. One, use the comments box below to ask any questions. Both Natalie and I will be looking at this and monitoring this, as we should, because this is a kind of a mini membership podcast here. To that. But also, Nathalie, I want people to be able to connect directly with you and the Membership Lab. Where, where should they go? We'll put the description below, but where should they go? Speaker B: So they can go to themembershiplab.com. That's the website. I also have a page that is themembershiplab.com/gift, and that's where you'll see some free resources if you're interested to dig further into one of these topics. And you can find me on YouTube, The Membership Lab, and I am most present on LinkedIn, my name, if you can spell it. Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Nathalie, thank you so much for all these tips. Honestly, this is one of those podcasts I know that I'm going to be rewinding, listen again, rewind, listen again, because there's just so many little moments in there that I just want to reflect on and absorb. Absorb. So yeah, I'm very, very grateful to you for all the value that you brought here today. Thank you so much. Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for having me, Neil. It's always a pleasure to, to share all this. Thank you.

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