Measure Podcast Conversions, Not Downloads, for Real ROI

Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. It involves AI. So we've been involved with AI for over six years now. You know, back when it was, we didn't have all the tools that we have now at our disposal. Right. But we've always seen AI as an amplifier, a connector, a way to customize, personalize, not a way to replace the human, you know, and write for me, create my course for me, create my website for me. To me, this is all low quality. So. But more into okay, let's use AI to analyze what the episode says. Let's use AI to use AI to analyze what the listener is telling us about themselves. And let's use AI to take both and give them a piece of advice that's actually relevant to them. It's like a customized lead magnet, if you will. Unique lead magnet for each listener. Speaker B: Welcome to the Talking Silkworm podcast, the source for online course platforms and educators to build engaged communities, expand their reach and establish their brand authority. Listen to expert insights and real world stories shaping online learning. Gain knowledge and inspiration to elevate your platform's impact. Seeking innovative ways to grow your reach and foster thriving communities for creators and learners. You've found the right place. Join us weekly for discussions and actionable takeaways from those making a difference in online education. Ready to learn from the best in the industry? Tune in and let's explore impactful strategies together. If you think podcast downloads are the key metric to measure the success of your business podcast, let me tell you that sadly you are wrong. The good thing is that in this episode we are going to give you some tips and recommendations in terms of how you can actually measure the success says for your podcast and what important metrics are so you can understand your audience better and convert those listeners into leads. Potential clients or clients. For that, we have an expert. Her name is Natalie d' Ormieu and she has created a tool that is specifically designed for podcasts to turn those listeners into leads by using AI customization. I'm not going to give you all the details right now. You have to listen to the episode and in this conversation, we are going to listen. Natalie, tell us about what the important metrics actually are to measure the success of our show and what strategies we can use to understand our audience better and how we can turn that passive listener into a active lead. It is a very, very nice conversation. We are just scratching the surface. I'm sure you will need to go check Natalie's tool to have a deeper understanding. But for now, without further ado, here is our conversation with Natalie De Romeu. Natalie, thank you very much for being a guest today on the Talking Silkworm podcast. Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me, David. Speaker B: All right, Natalie, we have you here because you focus on something very, very important for podcasters that is turning listeners into customers. Everybody wonders, oh, my God, how do I do this? What's the process? What does it take? And sometimes they have, like, the wrong focus. And that's something we are going to discuss. But before we do that, tell us a little bit more about yourself, what you do and how you got to work in this area. Speaker A: Sure. My name is Nathalie de Remieux. I live in the south of France. I have been in business for 20 years. We run a family business with my husband. My background is in tech, so software engineer. I worked in the Silicon Valley for 10 years before coming back to France. And for the better part of business life, we've been building websites, membership sites, online course platforms, and at the start of this year, 2025, my husband and business partner really started to look at podcasting, because we have a podcast that was basically a fail, so we can talk about that too, and was like, we could not find out how to connect the podcast to the business because, you know, you invest time and money into podcasting or guest, even guest podcasting, but you're not seeing the ROI on the other side because you don't know your listeners. And everybody's saying, well, but people listen on Apple and Spotify, so what can I do about it? Well, there is a lot you can do about it. That's what we're going to talk about today. So because we see ourselves as, like, problem solvers, like, is there a problem? Can we offer a solution? That's when my husband started to think, okay, what can we do to connect the listener that is like, you know, listening to the episode and wants to take the next step? Maybe not book the call right away, but at least start a connection. Because, you know, a lot of people, they can sign up to freebies, but a lot of people don't even look at them. Right. How many do we have in our download folder that we haven't opened? So this is a way. Podcast Lead Flow. That's the name of our product. This is really a way to start that conversation for the person that's ready. And that's really how it all got started. Speaker B: And I think it's important to mention, Natalie, that the tools you develop and the approach you have involves artificial intelligence as well. Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. It involves AI. So we've been involved With AI for over six years now. You know, back when it was, we didn't have all the tools that we have now at our disposal. Right. But we've always seen AI as an amplifier, a connector, a way to customize, personalize, not a way to replace the human, you know, and write for me, create my course for me, create my website for me. To me, this is all low quality. So. But more into, okay, let's use AI to analyze what the episode says. Let's use AI to analyze what the listener is telling us about themselves, and let's use AI to take both and give them a piece of advice that's actually relevant to them. It's like a customized lead magnet, if you will. Unique lead magnet for each listener. Speaker B: That's great. That's great. All right. That is a good segue to my first question, which is a tricky question, Natalie. It's very tricky, which is now that you mentioned personalizing or customizing like the lead magnet. What is important when it comes to growing my podcast? Because the metric most podcasters focus on is downloads. And I have to emphasize here that we are speaking about podcasts, business podcasts. Yes. It's not like a passion project is a podcast that is meant for you to build your brand, build your authority, and attract leads. But a lot of people will only focus on downloads. Downloads, downloads. And they will feel frustrated when the number of downloads is not like the thousands they expect. I think downloads is not the key metric. You let me know if you disagree. What do you think the key metrics are when it comes to having a business podcast? Speaker A: So. And you're absolutely right. So I hear this a lot. People look at downloads. Why? Because that's pretty much the only metrics that you can easily get, let's be honest. So I can't remember we said this, but they said, like, there are two different types of podcasts. There is the entertainer and there is the educator. So the first thing is really to really look at what do I want? What is the purpose of my podcast? If one of the purposes of my podcast is to grow my business and get clients? And then you need to reverse engineer that and say, what do I need to talk about? What is my ideal listener needs to hear now and how do I make it take the next step? So you are talking about metrics. The downloads still great if you want sponsors, right? That's all the sponsors are looking at is how many downloads, how many listeners do you have. Right. But here we're talking about quality over quantity. Right? It's really not about the quantity. It's about, am I in front of the right audience? If you do solo episodes, you pretty much know you are the expert. So you're probably going to have episodes that talk more about strategy. You're going to have some for visibility that build trust, maybe stories. Just like in marketing, you need different kind of episodes. So here we are not talking about doing this for every single episode, but you need. You must create episodes that are really strategically designed to speak to the listener. Just like when you create a lead magnet or a mini magnet or an ebook or a guide or something. I'm going to create an episode that talks about my framework and then I'm going to have a form like a podcast lead flow that is going to ask them where they're at and. And then AI is going to be able to tell them, here is your plan based on what you want to achieve, Right? So the idea is to be strategic whether you're going to use AI and podcast lead flow, but at least to be strategic about the call to action, right? What you're going to talk about, make it actionable, a unique call to action, and repeat it often. So you can say from the beginning. And by the way, I'm going to have a tool for you, right? So just focus on listening and then you can get the tool afterwards. No need to take notes or something like that. You can mention it in the middle of the episode and of course, at the end, tell people what to do. Now your next step is and to the person that it really resonates with, they'll fill out the form, right? And they will tell you about themselves in exchange for like a unique. Just imagine the listener sitting next to you. You ask it a couple of questions, and based on what they answer, you say, okay, this is what I think you should be doing next, except that it sends an email. So now you start that conversation. Okay, so that's really the key to me is like, you think with the end in mind, I'm going to have an episode that talks about my framework or my program and make it actionable so that people would feel at the end, okay, but how is that working for me? What do I need to do to do that? What's my next step? Speaker B: Okay, here comes an even trickier question, Natalie, to follow up with what you just spoke about. So we agree that downloads are not necessarily measurement of success or good strategy because you can have a lot of downloads but no conversions. That can be true. How can we measure success in that case? What metrics Matter. And more important here is, is it measurable? Because we always want to have like, okay, how many or how much? Yes, countable. No, countable. But. But what if there are some aspects of my strategy that cannot be measured, Some results cannot be measured. Yes. So like. Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, typically people that listen on Apple and Spotify, for example, or on these platforms, do you know if they really listen or if they turn it on but they are doing something else? We don't know. Right. So when you want metrics that you can count on, then you have to decide what those metrics are for you. What are your KPIs, what are your key performance indicators? Right? And you choose them in such a way that you can actually measure them, otherwise they are useless. So, for example, you share your episode on these platforms, that's fine, right? But you should also absolutely have it on your own website so that you control what happens next. So that you control the visit to the page. You can control if they, if you just have like a standard freebie, you control if they sign up and if they come from that episode number. That is a good metric conversion of people coming to the page. How long do they stay on the page? That means is there a chance they are listening and are they signing up? So if they get to the thank you page, then you know, boom, you got a conversion. Okay, but in order to measure this, you measure based on an experiment that you run, right? You don't just like create the page and then you're like, nobody is visiting my page. Nobody is listening. Therefore the episode is not talking to my audience. No, you still have to put it in front of the audience. Right? So that's what you share with your email list. That's what you share on social media. Don't share the Apple and Spotify or say listen to wherever you want. That is not serving you. Like, if you want your person, you say go here on my website, because I also have a tool for you to help you implement. Which one do you think the person is going to go if they're really interested by that and the pain is really there. So you can still share over there to get the downloads, the reviews. But in terms of repurposing the episode, that is an episode that can last you for several years. If it converts, it's like a lead magnet on steroids, if you will. They listen to your voice and then you give them a, a unique piece of advice. That is next level from, from a quiz even that is already, you know, a bit more personalized. But here they really find something that works for them. So the way people, like, I like to say, like when the episode goes live, it's just the start. And I know people are like, oh, the episode goes live. So they talk about it maybe for a week and then I'm on to the next episode. Okay. No, it's just the start. Now you have an amazing asset that you can repurpose and you can keep sharing. We have a client, Alicia St. Germain. She put the episode in her nurture sequence on her existing list. Okay. Like people that are already on her list, somebody that had never booked a call with her, listened to the episode, filled out a form, booked a call, she sold a group program to her. And she's like, she's my ideal client. She got me. And what Alicia said is like, I really like the email that she got because she can see she sissied on it. So she can literally start a one on one conversation by email. But she said, you know, what's most important is that, that make me connect with her. It's not about the email, it's the fact that I know she, I reached out and she basically, you know, took my hand and like she took the, the help and then we started connecting. So that's why I'm saying it's not like quantity, like let's get a whole bunch of people. We don't even know if they are the right people for our business, but let's get some listeners. It's not about that. It's about making sure that it's going to attract the right people. And the people are like, I'm not going to fill out a form. That, that sounds like a lot of work. Probably is not in pain anymore enough to get that piece of advice. Speaker B: Great, I love how you phrased it. You said publishing the episode is just the start. Yes, that's the first step. A lot of entrepreneurs who create podcasts think that's the end goal, publishing, but that's actually the first step for you to build that relationship with that potential client or that lead. Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. So. And you know, like, because, I mean, I know I, you know, I have a podcast, it's got 137 episodes and I was never able to be able to connect with my listeners, but I know my clients were listening and telling me that they really enjoyed it. So it's really about like, you know, you're building great stuff like this is an asset for your business that now you have that you can keep using. Right. And yet people Go. I guess because they. I don't know. I don't know why people like. Well, I think they feel the pressure of, like, I have to have an episode every week. So their focus is on creation. What should I talk about? What guests should I invite? Right. Instead of thinking strategy for podcast. Speaker B: Great. Yeah, I think that's key. Creation does take a lot of work. That's why I always insist you should not focus on the editing or production part of the show. You should always delegate that part. And you should be focused on the topics, key topics, understanding your audience and the strategy. Not on making sure that there are no breaths in your audio which happens. Or. Oh, I didn't like how this sentence sounded, so I want to change this or record it happens a lot. Like people getting their own way. Because I want that. I always paint it like a cake. Like you're trying to sell this beautiful, perfect cake. Yeah, that is super tasty, super yummy. But nobody knows about it because you want to make it so perfect that it never goes out. Out of the store. Yeah, you never. Nobody ever gets to see it because you're focused only on what it looks like instead of, like, delivering it to the customer. Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've heard this in business. You know, 20% creation, 80% marketing. I think it's the same with podcast. It's really the same. It's about what you do with that asset. Right. If you're waiting for people that are listening on their phone to go back and remember the URL, some people will. Okay. But there is so much that you can do on your own website where you really have control over the next step and that you can measure. Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that sounds great. On the same note, what are strategies or tools I can use to move a listener from, like, passive listening into engaging with my content or engaging with the freebie or engaging with a league magnet I have for them. Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I don't know if you listen to a lot of podcasts, but I've been recently, you know, like, really binging. And what I'm seeing, you know, when I'm connecting is when there is stories that is within people that are like, purely educating and like, this is what you should do. Doesn't resonate so much, but it's really like concrete examples. People need to feel, it needs to be relatable. It definitely doesn't. Should not be perfect because people don't connect with perfection. So I am one of those people that don't mind the. And actually, I never edited My episodes, because they are just the way we talk a conversation, you know, unless there is a really beep like you need to get or something that goes wrong. But like it's a conversation by default. And I think it makes it more. So much more human. Right. That's my opinion. So I think that's what connects with people is like you make it relatable. You hook them from the start into a pain or struggle or something that they are interested in. And once you get their interest, then it's about the episode, is about the journey to get them to see that there is a potential solution and they might not be that far from being able to make progress. Right. And then the goal of your call to action is the next natural step. So typically, if you work with someone or you have a program or something, and if you've been doing the same thing over and over with people, you have kind of like a system, a framework or process that you kind of like would explain and where people would be able to identify. Oh yeah, that part I don't have. Right. And so that they have a sense of where they fit into that and makes it kind of like a potential solution for them, something that they want to explore. But how would that work for me? And that's all you need. You don't need to sell them with the podcast. Right. Especially if they have never heard of you before. Right. You just need to get them to take the next step. Speaker B: How do I know they're ready for that next step? Is there like a sign maybe on my website? Is there like something that helps me know? Because I want to know who the person is, I want to have information about them. So how do I know this type of person is ready to take the next step? Speaker A: So, I mean, the person that's ready to take the next step is the person that is going to take you up on the call to action. So if you say fill out the form to get like a resource, like a checklist or something, that person is more likely to take the next step than the person that doesn't, obviously. Right. So the person that is really to take the next step is the person that has the problem that you can solve for them. So talk to the problem and how you what your solution is, you know, like how you work with people, you know, if that is what you do. And there needs to be some story about, you know, you as well, especially if they don't. Don't know you at all. Right. But that's the best measure of if somebody is ready Is if they take your call to action. And the call to action needs to be something that helps them right now, not in six months. Right. So that's the measure. Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Okay. That's important to know. Now, Natalie, how do I customize the calls to action or the lead magnet to the person? Because there might be quite a few different client profiles. Maybe I don't have clarity on who my client is yet because that also happens. Or it keeps changing because client Personas are dynamic. How do I make sure whatever lead magnet I create is relevant for each of these listeners? Speaker A: Yeah. So basically, again, you go with the end in mind. And what you need to know is for every type of client, every avatar, let's call it an avatar, right? You have to know what is their level of awareness, their level of awareness of the problem, and their level of awareness of the solution. So your freebie needs to be something that is connected to that. Like if there is a gap between the level of awareness and what you offer, like, you know, they need that, but they don't know, then it's never going to connect. Right. So you need to know every single avatar where they're at with the problem. You know, are they. Are they aware about the problem? Are they aware about a potential solution like yours? And do they know you? Right. Those are like the three levels basically of awareness. Right. But if you have multiple avatars, you have multiple freebies because they have different problem, different angles. That doesn't mean that the product at the end of the offer is not the same. It could be, but if their pain, they come from a different pain or a different need, then the lead magnet needs to match that. It needs to meet them there. Speaker B: I find it very tricky, and I'm sure you have been there as well. People think they have a problem, but actually that's not the problem. The problem is a different thing. Yes. Like they have an idea of what the problem is, but the problem is something different. How do you bridge that gap between what the potential lead or what the lead thinks the problem is versus what the actual problem is? How do you connect those so you can actually help them and engage them better? Speaker A: Yeah, it's tricky, right? Because we are not in their head and we wish we were. But what is important is, like you said, is that we have to focus on. That's what I call the level of awareness is like what they. What they want. Right. Basically what they think they need. Right. So you need to talk to that. And once you've built the connection that they are listening and you start to build a trust, then you can introduce. You're not the only one. And very often when this. There is this happening, there is also this and this, Right? So basically, they have to be willing to listen to you and start to trust you for that. But you always have to start with what they believe, because otherwise they're like, no, that's not me. That's not my problem. But you have to speak to what they think their problem is. That's always the start. Speaker B: Okay, okay, yes, yes, I agree. You have to talk about what they have in mind, and then, like, on the sides and try to introduce. Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Speaker B: The actual sources of the. Speaker A: And you can be very open. You can say, you know, I. So, you know, you have this problem, and I know you think that this is the problem, but I want to offer you a different perspective. What if this, this, this. And you get them to think. And if they're like, yeah, that's my problem, then you haven't told them this is your problem. You have helped them kind of like, see that it could be something else. And they're like, yeah, no, this is my problem. And they kind of have a feeling that they find that. That it's. That. You see what I mean? Like, you guide them. Like, these are some options. I want you to explore something, you know, this and this and this. And to get them to see that maybe there are other reasons. Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with that. If there is, like, a small step that an entrepreneur can take right now to start converting those listeners into leads, what do you think they should do first? Speaker A: So if they are host of a podcast, I think that the first step is really to get clear on who is the ideal listener that they want to talk to. You imagine that that person is sitting next to you. What do you want to tell them? What do they need to know in order to say, okay, how can you help me? And that should be an episode that you record, because that's basically you saying, you have this problem. This is a potential solution. This is how I help people. Of course, if you just have this episode, people that don't know you at all, haven't listened to other episodes, they might not take you up on booking a call right away. Right. They don't know you, but they might sign up to a freebie to say, that sounds interesting. You know, it's like, it's aligned with the way I think, why not? Right? So I think that would be the first step. Another way, actually, that is actually even depending on where you are with your podcast, but is to do guest podcasting. Because the advantage of guest podcasting is that you're being put in front of audiences. So if you have, like, a strong opinion on something, right. Or if you have something to say that is not what everybody else is saying, then you can get on a podcast that has your audience. So you have to check that it's your audience. Right. Otherwise it doesn't really help. And then as a guest, you can provide that expertise, and then you share that episode. That episode is going to be shared by the host, but as a guest, you can also share this episode. And with a tool like Podcast Sleepflow, you can add a form and get people to. So you can use the visibility of the podcast, if it's a nice podcast with a nice following. But then you reshare this episode that you were on a guest as an asset that now you have and where you can start to build an audience and connect with that ideal listener. It's always thinking of this one listener that needs what you have, and what do they need to hear about you, your business, your values, how you work, type of people you work with, your method, the results you're getting. There are so many different types of podcasts, but in terms of getting them to raise their hand and say, hey, I like what you're doing, then I think that would be, like, a good episode. Speaker B: Great. Great. All right, to wrap up, I would like you to tell us a bit more about the tool you have created, which is Podcast Lead Flow, which kind of covers everything we have spoken about, because it helps you understand who your listener is, what your listener wants, and it helps you address that specific need with customized assets, which I think it's so cool. I have never seen something like that before. And this is something maybe a lot of or most business podcasters are going to be interested in, because they're doing it to convert. They are not doing it for fun. Maybe they have a lot of fun. I think podcasting is fun, but there is a reason, a business reason behind it. So tell us a bit more about what Podcast Lead Flow is, how it works, and what results it delivers to the podcasters who implement it. Speaker A: Yeah. So basically, Podcast Lead Flow is a tool that can take an episode and use the transcript as knowledge, expertise, and then create a form that people can fill out. Everything is generated by AI. So AI is going to analyze an episode. It's going to come up with three questions that it could ask someone, and it's going to use the answers that the listener enters as Context and it's going to come up with an output. So for example, if you're talking about you're sharing your four step framework to help people grow their visibility on LinkedIn, I'm making this up. Then it's going to ask them very specific question and based on that, it's going to send them an email with their four step plan based on where they're at. So that's basically a tool that helps you start a conversation by email with a listener that wants to implement what you talked about in the episode, basically. So it requires that you have your own website, obviously. I mean you could have the form and put a link on your show notes, but we know that most people don't listen rich show notes. Some people don't even know they're there. So you can keep adding things. You know, I see amazing show notes, you know, big like this. With so many call to actions and things to do. I don't think it works that well for people, but I think they do it because they don't know what to, what else to do. But so, and share basically then you can share that episode on social, on your list in all the places that you typically share your, your, your podcast, on other podcasts as well. And that's how people are going to be able to connect. So of course the big thing and you talked about it at the end is metrics. You're going to be able to see who fills out the form. They can be automatically added to your CRM if you want to. You can tag them so you can know, oh, they come from episode 147. Right. You can customize the output, you can be cc'd on the email. So a couple of days later you can say, hey, did you, did you enjoy, you know, my little tip? And then you can add more to it, you know, by email and then you can start a conversation if you want to. You can have the email say just hit reply or the email, the call to action can just be sign up to this waiting list if you want to be notified. But the goal is the connection, you know, by email. So that's basically the tool, right? It's pretty straightforward. It's not meant to be installed on every episode. It needs to be an episode that's actionable. Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay. Speaker A: An episode that doesn't say give a review, subscribe, you know, and all the stuff go and follow me on Instagram and follow me on LinkedIn, da da da. Oh, and by the way, I have a tool that is not going to Work as well. You're asking them to do five things. So it's like the most strategy. It's. It's just like when you have a landing page for a freebie, you don't ask them to do five things, you do one thing. So the challenge a bit, if you will, is really to see it as a form of lead magnet, right? A customized lead magnet. That means that they need to stay focused. So if you can mention that in the episode, that you're going to have much better conversions. Speaker B: Do I need to be like a tech expert to implement this on my website? Do I need like a coding background or do I need like technical person to just jump in and make this happen on my website? Speaker A: No, absolutely not. So in fact, it is all like at the push of a button, literally. So it will create. It will. Because it's generated by AI. You know, the foundation is generated by the AI. So you have a suggestions button. Once you've selected your episode, you click suggestions. It's going to create the three questions and the prompt. But you can go back and change it if you want to. So AI creates everything and then you can go back and say, you know what, I want to change the questions because I only gets it from your episode. But you might have more insights. You might want to add one question, you know, or things like that. But there is absolutely no coding. And really the key is that you can go back and you can see as well the. The answers that people have entered. So if you're selling high tickets through sales calls, for example, well before the call, you can go back, you've seen the emails that they got because you got sissied on it. But you can go back and see what they say, their pain was right, what they answered in the questions. And that is very valuable information. When you get into a sales call, Speaker B: I have another question that is a bit more technical. Does this work in any type of platform for websites? Like, for example, if I have a squarespace or if I have Kajabi or if I have WordPress. Will this work on any type of platform? Speaker A: I hear this a lot. So the product is primarily a WordPress plugin. Just because we work on WordPress. However, we do have an iframe version. So anywhere you can embed an iframe, you can add it. So that means the pad page, the catch A, all these places, the squarespace will work as well. Speaker B: Okay, okay, okay. That's very good to know. If people want to learn more about what you do, if they want to learn more about podcast lead flow, maybe how much it costs, what results it can give me, what other technical requirements are needed, or maybe I want to go deeper into what it can do for me. Where can I find this information and where can listeners follow you for more details on this, on this tool? Speaker A: Sure, of course. So people can follow me on LinkedIn, my name, and you can also go to podcastleadflow.com here. You're going to see how it works. You're going to see demos that you can actually play with. So we encourage people to go in and fill out a form and see what they get in an email. Those are all sandboxes. That means you're not added to any emails or any CRM. Right? They are just for you to see the output. I actually create a podcast lead flow for every single guest appearance that I make. So I will make one for this one. And just because it's a conversation and we, we talked about different things, you know, it's like, I will probably update the questions so that they are more guided toward the last part of our conversation. Not about, you know, my business and things like that, but that will be on the site as well, so that people can actually play or play with it. Really the key is I want people to see. See that this is a way to really pre qualify people. I have a client that says that. She's like, it's not like a lead magnet. It's a way for me to pre qualify people. The people that are going to fill out the form are the people that have the pain and that are ready. She said, I don't want my calendar filled with appointments. I want the right ones. And she's right, because the first one that booked she sold for $7,500. So I guess that worked. Yes, you can actually also, I think there is a link. It's a case study on the site. So you'll see it if you go to podcastleadflow.com and it has a story and you can see a form live that generated that amount. Speaker B: Okay, that's great to hear. It's a lot of valuable information. So for those listening, in the description of this episode, we're going to have the link to Natalie's LinkedIn profile and we're going to have the link to podcast lead flow, that is podcastleadflow.com go try the demo. I think you did send me a demo before, and it was pretty cool because the questions were on point. So go try the demo, the demo, experiment with it, play with it, and reach out to Natalie's team if you want to go deeper into this tool, Natalie really appreciate the information you have shared with us, but also the tool you are creating. By the way, people listening, this is not a sponsored episode. I'm speaking wonders about this tool because all of my clients always stress so much about converting, converting, converting listeners. There are no tools specifically designed for podcasts. This is the first one I see, so I think it's totally worth it to go check it out, try it out and potentially implement it in your podcast show. Speaker A: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. David. Speaker B: It was great to have you. Thanks for tuning in to the Talking Silkworm podcast. We hope today's conversation with a leader or educator in online learning has provided valuable insights for cultivating engaged communities, expanding your reach, and building your brand authority. Connect with us on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Share your thoughts and suggestions at infoalking silkworm.com we value your feedback. Subscribe now for more perspectives on elevating your platform's impact in the world of online learning. See you next time.